Shozo Sato
Oral history of Shozo Sato, Champaign, August 28, 2024.
Speakers: Jon L. Seydl (JLS), director of Krannert Art Museum; Brenda Nardi (BN), senior director of advancement in the College of Fine and Applied Arts; Mark Anthony Macon (MAM), artist and protege of Shozo Sato; Shozo Sato (SS), artist and former director of Japan House.
JLS: I’m new to doing oral history. We begin with a sound check; that’s working fine. And then everybody should state their name in the room. So, Jon Seydl, director of Krannert Art Museum.
BN: Brenda Nardi, senior director of advancement in the College of Fine and Applied Arts.
SS: Shozo Sato, humble artist.
MAM: Mark Anthony Macon, even more humble artist and protege of Shozo.
JLS: And we’re in Professor Sato’s home in Champaign on August 28, 2024. In general, what we’re doing is in relationship to an exhibition we’re doing at Krannert Art Museum called Making Place for the Arts at Home, about midcentury modern architecture in Champaign-Urbana that actually housed or contained artistic performances: Jack Baker, John Replinger, and Dick Williams. And so in some ways we’re less interested in the architecture itself but in what actually happened inside the buildings, and how the buildings actually were designed for performance.
SS: Very, very simple. Jack Baker started from his father’s carriage sales business centuries ago. And in downtown Champaign. And then the big floor, and then he had all five seven calories. I still remember. And then eventually the carriage disappeared and then therefore whole the brick wall and that was his statement. So ever in the house, for example, or brick wall, he will not allowed to hang any paintings. Any photograph, everything have to be left on the floor. And then, office is the same way: brick wall and then all those awards, etc., flame thing despiring up an off-road. And that is his as an art. Architect artistic statement, he wants to have the plain wall.
JLS: And it’s true. We see that in every building by Jack Baker. I wondered maybe if we could start with Margaret Erlanger and if you could just talk about how you met her and what role she played in you coming to Illinois?
SS: And one of the purposes, of course, leave in. Seems to be specializing watercolors. Just the watercolor. But in Japan, everybody do everything. And so multiple practice of our art media by one artist—that was her interest. Eventually, she found out my product art school in Kamakura and that’s why I was teaching my classmates. They’re coming teaching. And a very nice group. And so she overheard my name in Tokyo? Then she traveled down to Kamakura for two weeks every day. Taking note of how I teach classes.
JLS: She sat in on your classes. [SS nods.]
SS: And so I was teaching kabuki dance. This ceremony flower arrangement. And then my classmates, the Western style drawings, and so we had a little art school. And then, we got Kamakura. Is the next Yoko Star? That’s big naval base. American naval base. And so many American neighbor officers’ family. My next door, you know, takes waves and get out of them. And this is our house. And then can you imagine, you know what the tokonoma is?
They make made that the toilet and the paint is expensive period in the white. No, and then walking on a tatami with high heel shoes. So the rice throw everywhere in the house. That was really, you know, difference in cultural valuation.
So anyway, so Margaret heard my name and she came. Not everyday, and then before she leave, she said, if there an invitation from the University of Illinois, as, you know, based in artists, would you be interested? But in the same time, Harry N. Abrams publishing company—the big coffee [table books]. And then they were interested in my ikebana book. And so they requested coming to New York. For minimum of six months, bringing all flower vases because they want to add additional 200 pages to the book. Originally a how-to book when they want to make it an appreciation of the art form.
[Cell phone interruption.]
SS: Anyway. Yes. So, that’s how I end up getting to know Margaret. She was thinking not and then eventually University of Illinois invitation, and Abrams invitation were requesting for me in New York for six months. So putting in all those flower vases ended up five tons. Oh goodness. Because, you know, more packing boxes.
JLS: Sure.
SS: And during those days in 1960, even in New York, you cannot find any Japanese stuff.
BN: So you would have come to the United States for that, regardless of the invitation from the University of Illinois.
SS: Yes. And so the two invitations came together. So I said to myself, this is a Buddha auspicious. So I decided, let’s move on. So I closed my art school. And all my students come help packing. And that was very nice. Uh, you know Japanese futon?
JLS: Oh yes.
SS: The three sleeping years. Oh yes. And then all my students, 15 or so, come stay. And then eventually this futon dismantled, the making dropping. Oh, yeah.
JLS: Sure.
BN: Double duty. Yeah.
SS: Hey, so that was interesting.
JLS: And so you started in New York and then came to Illinois after that?
SS: Well, so I just finished the book and then same time I come up here. Here and there. Um, I forgot the name. Across street from a woman’s gym.
BN: On campus.
SS: On the campus. Well, they had the little stage auditorium and that’s why I had first dance. Not the Armory. Just the theater.
JLS: I will see if I can find anything. So they had a little stage there.
SS: The home economics building.
JLS: Oh, Bevier [Hall].
MAM: Oh, so they had a little stage in there? Okay I didn’t know they had a stage.
SS: So, that’s how she brought me here, and then I was going out to different fraternities, sororities, demonstrating tea ceremony in December, and then eventually they raised their voice: We want to study this officially. Not just watching demonstrations. So it was their request, eventually reached to the dean and then the dean said, okay, you do kabuki. So, Theatre Department, you want to have Shozo as a real staff. What’s kabuki? We don’t know anything so we don’t want it. So at that time Krannert Center just opened so I become first-generation artist-in-residence, specializing in kabuki. And then, Dean McKenzie: Why you the one-man department! So kabuki department. So, I had an office in Krannert and then started in kabuki.
JLS: And then what was your relationship with Margaret like when you were living here?
SS: She was very much like protective mother. And then that’s going on for years. And then strange woman show up. Cannot forget her name. And then, because my relationship with [Margaret] like a mother. And in an adopted son, like, you know, very, very close. Whatever city go, I drive, you know, all that. And then see one day, I see a dance. I’m gonna tear you up.
BN: This Marshall person. Oh.
SS: Then how am I gonna separate you and Margaret? How, she said. It was very strange. Jersey maybe was she?
JLS: In the Dance Department? She was in dance, okay? And then—
SS: Margaret was a kind of innocent person and in this Marshall the smallest token and so she was graduate student in dance. She talking to her and she become an assistant professor kind of one here. Yeah, so you can see how, and then eventually she said, I will tear you up between Margaret, so she did. So she started telling her all sort of things about me and Margaret was reasonably innocent person so she believed it. And then later on told me, you, Margaret become like that. And then, I thought about this massage run, and he said, yeah, he told me and she told me that I don’t separate Margaret and me. So she did.
JLS: Wow. Was that a permanent rift in your relationship with Margaret?
SS: My goodness.
JLS: And so this would have been in the early 1970s. Yeah.
SS: Okay.
JLS: And so, before the rift, were you creating work together with Margaret?
SS: No, no. Okay, uh, because does he have that? So, I. She told me I can have exhibition, so my—
JLS: So, you had a sculpture exhibition at the Erlanger House? I did not know that. It’s not recorded.
MAM: I’m gonna go grab a copy of your sculpture book because it might have information about it.
SS: And then there is a photo album too. In those ones. The archives didn’t take that, I thought they did. They might—
MAM: I’ll check.
JLS: Okay, I’ll check.
MAM: But I think they did take it.
SS: Well, this house is becoming. We wanted this in this, right?
BN: But photographs of the installation at Erlanger House would be amazing so we could get that from the art.
JLS: Amazing. Yeah. This is not something that’s recorded anywhere else that I’ve been able to find. This is amazing. Yeah. So um, I mean, so could you talk a little bit more about that exhibition? What it was like at the house.
SS: Oh, I had a whole set of photographs of the exhibition.
BN: Well, we’ll surely, if it’s not here, we’ll be able to get that from archives that will be—do you remember how many pieces you showed?
SS: This thick this way, red cover photograph. Okay.
BN: Oh, that would be amazing.
JLS: That would be amazing. And there was a sculpture that remains at the house.
SS: Correct. It was, that was, that piece a part of that exhibition. Yeah.
SS: And then, this sculpture is almost like a made for him. Would you leave it there? Put my name on. So I thought, I hope they will put my neighbor eventually right on courtyard. Sculpture of bonding and then that was—
JLS: Yes. Wonderful.
SS: Funding. And then the big ice storm. That to tear up. Wants me to rebuild, that take it off, and I become busier. So I never done, so still semi-broken.
JLS: Sure. Yeah that’s also been hard to understand the history of that sculpture. Could you maybe back up and talk about your work as a sculptor? Because I feel like we all know now about your work as an ink painter. Of course your work with the living arts of Japan but I feel like the sculpture is not—
SS: As traditional art of Japan, ikebana for our arrangement. And during my days, Japanese flower arranger. Start making mobile contemporary sculpture. Softerprise. And so, I end up doing the same so like, you know, I didn’t see the—
MAM: Catalog or anything else about it or any notes. I think that if you talk to Scott Schwartz at the archives as long as his students have already cataloged all of that—
JLS: Sure he should have it.
SS: Yeah.
JLS: And he can give us access even if it’s not cataloged.
MAM: Can he? Yeah okay.
JLS: Yeah.
MAM: I’m not sure how the process—
JLS: Works. But yeah.
MAM: I mean there was a lot to go through so they may not have gotten through it—
JLS: And there—
MAM: Are still a few things remaining that we need to go through. He wants to pull some things back.
BN: Look at young Shozo.
JLS: I love it. From the News-Gazette.
BN: 1966.
JLS: And so you started making sculpture already in Japan.
SS: Oh yes.
JLS: Okay, so it was just, you continued the practice. And are they made of bronze? What are they made out of?
SS: Oh basically iron sheets.
BN: This is the one by the front door.
MAM: Yeah and then there’s one more I can bring into the table here. That’s right here.
JLS: I mean, this is incredible.
BN: Yes.
SS: So you can see the sculpture and the ikebana.
BN: Absolutely. So smart.
JLS: It makes so much sense.
BN: And don’t you have a couple of the ikebana sculptures in your living room? Or are they gone?
MAM: And there’s one right by the entryway as well.
BN: Okay. Yeah.
SS: And then that one I made for the Dance Department. So the—
JLS: At Illinois?
SS: A student can be inside and inside a piano wire. So what are the students pushing? And inside someone playing harp. Then each one of these have a different sound. They can hit the sound that’s wrong. So music instrument and dance piece.
BN: My goodness.
SS: That’s still in Union’s basement way down somewhere.
BN: Really?
JLS: All right, something else to look up.
MAM: And you mean, Sensei, that it’s in storage in there?
SS: You got that. So big. And then last time we used was at the Union.
MAM: And that would be great to see that on display again.
JLS: Mmm-hmmm.
SS: And it was on a lobby of Krannert for some time.
JLS: Oh, were the performances—they were both at the Union and at Krannert Center?
SS: And Krannert Center.
JLS: Krannert Center. Okay. Were there any performances—was there any dance performance at the Erlanger House that involved your sculpture?
SS: No. Look at that. This nice space, but for the dance, well, people can maybe [tonky]. People can sit down the page. You can see.
BN: I love this so much.
JLS: It’s amazing. It’s amazing.
MAM: The movement in them is just so pleasing and dynamic, and ikebana as sculpture is just such a beautiful idea.
SS: And then choreography. So they’re all in one.
JLS: And so maybe if we could step back to Erlanger House. Could you talk just a little bit more about your experience in the house? Other times you were there?
SS: Well, that house was solely designed for Margaret as a very tall skinny female. And so spaciousness, but hopefully fit into her lifestyle. For example, her father for the Nobel Prize winner in physics. And then he and nurse came, but he have no place to stay. Yes, he built a big house, but there’s no bedroom. There’s no room. That’s purely space.
MAM: So just one big open space.
BN: With a loft.
MAM: And she stayed in the loft?
SS: And there was no curtain. So when Alice is gone, Margaret is gone and then I have go stay there for summer housekeeping. And then, you know, I was young and so many of the [coding] get together, drinking beers and such. And because there’s no curtain and no anything people from behind they can see we’re having fun. So, when Margaret come . . . “Shozo, I hear you had fun.”
[laughter]
SS: So the house was like that. Solely built for her and for the [noh] dance. And so I stay with the friend’s house. And then her father and nurse stay in my townhouse.
JLS: The back wall is essentially one huge window. It’s just the, like, the biggest piece of glass you can imagine. And now of course, all the plants and the trees; it’s all very overgrown but I imagine then you could really see through.
SS: Yes, yes.
MAM: Where is it located?
JLS: It is on Carle Park. It’s on Indiana.
SS: Indiana.
MAM: Oh, then I am sure I have walked past it. I didn’t even know.
SS: Square brick.
BN: It’s set back quite a way.
MAM: Yes! Okay, that’s what that is.
JLS: And there’s . . . it’s interesting because there’s barely any windows. Which is exactly the opposite of every other house on Carle Park, which is all about windows onto the nature.
MAM: And it does have like—the exterior at least—I’ve never been inside—but has an office building kind of feel to it.
BN: Yes, it’s pretty stark.
MAM: But I’ve taken a lot of photos of the tree out front because in the morning mist all the vines around it . . . gorgeous, just gorgeous.
JLS: Margaret Erlanger would have loved that.
SS: And then you know, Jack having his own philosophy: He’s the architect and he have enough space for where he lived and he’s the father’s carriage house. But he never had garage. Summer, winter, his car always in backyard. And that’s something I didn’t understand as an architect, you know? Why he don’t have a garage in during those days, you know, you know, we had awful winter. Snow come up to this high.
BN: He didn’t put a garage with Erlanger House either.
SS: No. It—
JLS: You know, I think he was opposed to that sort of thing. I’d love to hear more about what you knew of Jack Baker. I mean you must—I know you have other connections with him as well. Were you friends? Did you see him?
SS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was very kind. He built many houses in outskirts of Chicago. So he had to go and check these houses’ condition so he took me out and show me how his design works itself. And in those houses I guess that have a strong owner’s request, they have the wall. And then hanging pictures in the walls. Not that common in a sense. That people all hanging paintings [and English].
BN: In his own space—I’m just curious—in the carriage house. The loft space.
SS: The big space.
BN: Yes. Did he, did he use that as a come together space for creative people to somehow shine a light on the arts in any way?
SS: Because he and Margaret was close friend. So Margaret requested to have a small dance concert and then eventually the carriage house—all parts open up the wall and then become one. And so end up many small spaces. And so at the individual place they have a dance concert and then the guests walk around, follow the dancers.
JLS: Oh, okay.
SS: So that was very nice experience.
JLS: Because there are photographs of a dance performance with Pat Knowles—Patricia Knowles. In the—there’s a part of the loft that has three different floors, but I didn’t know there were activities or dance in other parts of the loft, too. Interesting.
[MAM departs.]
JLS: So what—can you just tell us a little bit more about Jack as a person? What he was like as a architect, as a person in Champaign?
SS: He was very, very, very nice person. [long pause] Well, that’s all I can say.
JLS: Yeah, sure. Sure.
SS: Because you know, as I said, he took me to the many houses where he has job going on.
JLS: And did you create sculpture for other houses in Champaign? There’s a work in the [Jack Baker] loft that looks like, it looks like it might be yours. But I don’t know. I can send you a picture. I don’t have a photo with me now but I can certainly send that.
SS: Is in the first year. Margaret: “Why, Shozo, here you are in the U of I. What do you want to do?” So I said I’d like to do sculpture. Okay, and then—there is no longer the building exists, but there was an old man’s gym across street [pandering]. Was there? And then one corner they gave me the space and then were their torch. The whole set. You can use all this. So that was very nice and—
JLS: This was on the campus?
SS: Yeah, yeah. That man’s old gyms.
JLS: Ah, where is that?
SS: That’s on Neil? No, Springfield.
BN: Was that separate from the foundry in Art and Design? [SS nods.] That was separate. Oh, how interesting. I didn’t know that.
SS: Yeah.
JLS: And so, you were not working with other artists there. You were working with people who are doing foundry work.
SS: Well I was just doing sculpture. They gave me the space.
JLS: Okay.
SS: And so I’m wearing goggles, you know? And so I’m doing with the torch. I can’t see anything. And then [finish] brown bag lunch. Margaret came and then leave it there, sandwich.
JLS: Oh, she brought you lunch at the foundry.
BN: Oh, she was a good friend . . . or a good mother.
JLS: Yes, interesting. And so, did you have mutual friends—you and Margaret? Were there a lot of people that you spent a lot of time with alongside Margaret? I’m just trying to get a sense of the social circle.
SS: Well, mainly all Dance Department. Yeah.
JLS: So these must have been people like Beverly Blossom or Jan Erkert—
SS: Yeah yeah.
JLS: Becky Nettl.
SS: Mmm-hmmm.
JLS: Okay, excellent. So maybe we can sort of zoom back out a little bit to . . . I have a little bit of a sense now of what it was like when you came to University of Illinois. How did you land in the faculty at Art and Design. How did that happen?
SS: Well as I mentioned first, I was just visiting artist. And then students raised voice to have classes. So, officially Art Department take me in. And then, first faculty meeting. About 60—in those days Art Department was big. And 60 faculties and so, these senior faculties, 15 or so. All around conference table where I was sitting and then I’ve been [suitable] asked all sort of things.
BN: These were probably mostly white men?
SS: Oh yeah, yeah. And then a person who were GI and then went to Japan. Did after World War II and during those miserable lifestyles and Japanese [held] face and that’s what he saw and came back and here, you know, I was a [story] but still look like 14 years old. And so he, across table, pointed at me. Hey you’re Jap. What are you thinking on teaching in Illinois? And that was big welcome in those days.
BN: Were there remarks from anyone else in your defense at that table?
[SS shakes head.]
BN: It just hung in the air that question.
SS: And then I started crying on Doyle’s shoulder. And Doyle said: “Shozo, Americans are very weak for super, so you should become Super Jap. And then, you know, you can stand evenly.” So that was his—
BN: So that was Doyle’s advice.
SS: Well, I become Super Jap.
JLS: So, and then this meant that you were artist-in-residence at Krannert Center but also faculty in Art and Design.
SS: Yes.
JLS: And what were the classes you were teaching at Art and Design?
SS: 209. Still continue. Introduction to Asian Art. And the black ink calligraphy. Paintings. And then [inclusive] ikebana. So that’s what Kimiko-san teaches.
BN: Ah, she took those over.
SS: So she’s still teaching. So am I.
BN: Yes, yes, I know. Yeah, that’s the two of you. Yeah.
JLS: And so you were creating work in your studio, was that at home or?
SS: Well, I was given that space in the foundry [Loved it.] In the basement. So that’s where I worked.
JLS: So were you also painting there?
SS: In those days it was mainly sculpture. So in this book showing—these are the traditional ikebana. So from ikebana to this mobile, three-dimensional design.
BN: Those are so beautiful.
SS: So like this one. Yeah, this was at Margaret’s.
BN: Oh of course. Look at it against the brick wall.
SS: And then this harp—piano wires. And then on the wood. And then, this is the lobby for Krannert.
JLS: And do you know where the sculptures are today?
SS: I think the basement of the Union.
JLS: Okay, so not just the big sculpture but other sculptures as well.
SS: I think people bought it.
JLS: People bought sculpture, okay.
BN: And rightly so.
JLS: Right, exactly.
SS: Or something that they know three hundred dollars. In those days—
JLS: Do you know anyone in Champaign-Urbana who has your sculpture?
SS: I think so. The other day a stranger call: “My grandmother passed away and there is metal sculpture and your name is on it, so we want to know what this about.” So he brought—I will send you for a long time. And so people—local people—still have them.
JLS: Because we would—I would love to see more examples particularly from that period, particularly this one from Erlanger House. The red—
SS: Yeah.
JLS: Do you have any sense of where that might be?
SS: Well, that’s still there. Broken but still standing.
JLS: Oh, I see. So this is the fountain.
SS: Fountain, yes.
JLS: But it doesn’t, it doesn’t look like that today. Okay, that’s incredible.
BN: Isn’t there an interior? Isn’t there a piece in the interior of Erlanger House?
JLS: There is and it’s the work on the [points to image book]—it’s this, the taller one.
SS: Mmmm-hmm.
JLS: That one we are borrowing for the exhibition. So is there anything else you would want us to know about either your experience with Margaret Erlanger or Jack Baker, or about your work in the 60s in general and 70s?
SS: Well, I was Japanese, who just came to U.S. And so I didn’t know architect have so much to say because he don’t want to have anyone to hang anything on the wall and then the furnitures. . . . This doesn’t go with this house, so I end up getting her furnitures. So I still have them.
BN: You’ve got Margaret’s furniture?
SS: Uh-huh. Well, you’ve seen her desk.
JLS: You have her desk?
[All walk from the table to another part of the house.]
BN: Oh my goodness. Oh it definitely did not fit into Jack Baker’s Erlanger House. No.
SS: So all the furnitures were given to me.
BN: Oh look at that.
JLS: Okay. So, all the furniture that didn’t fit or didn’t work for Erlanger House came to you?
SS: So like not, not this one. . . . In my bedroom. Chest of drawers.
BN: Oh, how interesting. Do you feel like Jack’s aesthetic influenced you to turn to making sculpture?
SS: No, no. I was making sculpture in Japan.
JLS: Do you think you had an influence on Jack Baker in terms of architecture?
SS: No, no, no, no.
JLS: And what about John Replinger? I know you knew John Replinger and Dot Replinger.
SS: Who was he?
JLS: The architect John Replinger.
SS: Somehow that name don’t ring—
JLS: He designed Jim Bier’s house for example.
SS: Jim Bier’s house. Oh, I see. No, I know nothing.
JLS: Because he was very heavily influenced by Japanese—and also Dick Williams—I mean all three of them talk about in their writing about Japanese architecture.
SS: Yeah. And then Dick Williams. I think he the one the most well-digested Japanese architecture and philosophy. And then he made his own style.
JLS: Yeah. So could you say more about that? How he absorbed the philosophy?
SS: Like on one on the Neil Street—was it? Green Street. The big church.
JLS: Yes.
SS: Huge roof. And that’s—the name—the architect.
BN: The architect? Dick Williams.
JLS: Oh sorry. Yes.
SS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s Dick Williams. And he said he did Japanese way; he told me. Yes, the roof. Straight line and in Japanese Buddhist temple or any of the huge roof have a line at the end, so lift up, but that place straight down. So become very heavy, very heavy, that’s the difference. But I told him. “Well, this is my style!”
[All laugh.]
JLS: Right, that fits with everything I’ve heard about Dick Williams, very firm in his ideas. So you knew him as well.
SS: Oh yes. Yes, yes. And then his house—
JLS: Yes.
SS: Somewhere, somewhere.
JLS: It’s . . . it’s on University.
SS: Yeah, on University. That’s you know, square building. Have you ever seen that house?
BN: I don’t think I have, I’ve heard people talk about it, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it.
SS: No, no windows.
[MAM reenters.]
MAM: Sensei, I’m heading out. If that kid shows up while you’re alone, please just don’t answer the door. Sumi Sensei will be here at 2:30.
SS: Yeah.
MAM: [not intelligible] will be here about 5:30 to help with dinner, and I’ll be here around 6:00 to join you. So if you need anything, maybe give Sumi Sensei a call, but I can answer if there’s an emergency. Wonderful seeing both of you, great. And if I should find anything else that’s related to Margaret I will put that aside for you before we call the archives. Okay?
BN: Thank you, Mark.
JLS: Thank you. I think this is terrific. Yes, and this incredible information. Not a lot of this is written down any place. It will make a huge difference for the exhibition. I feel like I have a lot of research to do.
SS: Exhibition of what?
SS: So, the exhibition is looking at four buildings, the Jack Baker Loft, Margaret Erlanger House, John Replinger’s second home over in Yankee Ridge in Urbana, and Dick Williams’s home. And exploring how each of those houses were designed in some way to house the arts. So whether it’s a dance performance, an exhibition, which was news to me. John Replinger, in his house, put his studio very visibly in the middle of the house and Dot Replinger’s textile studio is also very prominent so they’re really showing the arts in the home. And so many things happened at Erlanger House because as you say, it wasn’t, I mean, it was unusual as a house, but in some ways better designed for performing—music too. Dick Williams hosted a lot of concerts. In the plan of Williams’s house, he literally describes the house as front stage and backstage.
SS: Oh really?
JLS: Yep. So he’s using like theater terms and he talks about this in his book too. So—but, your name keeps coming up. For all three of those architects actually. So, it’s pretty clear that you had sizable impact on their—probably on their, on their work in a lot of different ways, but just in their thinking. And what I feel like I’m learning for this, from this conversation, it was also about the way that you introduced this way of working in all of the arts at once.
SS: Mmm-hmm.
JLS: So it wasn’t just a kind of a specialized thing, but something that was much bigger.
SS: Yeah, yeah.
JLS: And that seems to have really had an impact on all of the architects. So this is wonderful. If you think of anything else of course just let me know. I know I will have follow-up questions. So—
BN: So, you’ll actually be placing some sculpture within the exhibition?
JLS: So the four sections, the four houses, each, get a part of the exhibition and for the Margaret Erlanger House, we definitely are bringing the sculpture from the house into the exhibition. But now I’m also thinking about other work as well. So. And I want to get into the archives to see if there’s anything there too.
SS: So please take this one.
JLS: That would be incredibly, incredibly helpful. Thank you.
BN: Um and there’s this piece and a piece by the front door. These are just so beautiful. Just so elegant.
JLS: Of course, as the director of KAM, I’m also thinking like these are maybe works that someday could enter KAM’s collection.
SS: Ha!
BN: Think about that. It would be wonderful alongside the paintings that we’ve added to the collection, to have at least one piece of your sculpture.
SS: Oh, sure.
JLS: Yeah. I, I know that in the early conversations about the ink painting exhibition, sculpture came up as a, as a topic and Maureen really wanted to, I think, rightly focus on the painting. I also, I think this exhibition will help people understand better the importance of the sculpture.
SS: I think [gestures to book] well, as I said, this is that space, right?
JLS: Right?
SS: This is a drum and then you see, this is little picks [?]. Each one have different tune.
JLS: It’s incredible. So it’s both dance, music, and visual arts at the same time.
BN: That piece, yeah, for sure.
[All look through the book together.]
SS: Oh all this, all was taken at Margaret’s home.
JLS: Oh, the photographs were made there.
SS: For the exhibition. At that time.
JLS: I would love to know where some of these sculptures are today.
SS: Yeah, this is all in Champaign.
JLS: All right, well I will start asking around as well. If you think of anyone who has one, please let me know. It’d be great. I’m so grateful for you for making this book. Because it makes the research a lot easier.
BN: I think the photographs too—
JLS: They’re amazing photos. Do you know who took the photographs?
[SS points to self.]
JLS: You did? Okay!
SS: This is in the front—the backyard in the Margaret’s. And then I just hang red cloth. And then this natural sunlight.
BN: They’re so dramatic. Look at those—just beautiful—the motion of those.
SS: Yeah, they’re all sold in Champaign somewhere.
JLS: That’s so great to know.
SS: Yeah, so if we [unintelligible] oh yeah, we have it, you know, some [unintelligible].
JLS: What I also picture happening with this exhibition is that it’s going to bring all of these things out, right? So all of these stories of people who knew the architects or who have sculpture, people who have houses, I mean, I think of this as a kind of a generative project, like we’re not making this the final statement on the work but we’re kind of opening up dialogue. I’m so glad to know how important the sculpture is to all of this and how fantastic they were taken, you staged the photographs at Erlanger House.
BN: At Erlanger House, yeah.
JLS: It’s significant.
SS: So then eventually this and another piece, I’ll donate to Krannert.
BN: Wow. Well, I’ll show you the other one on the way out. They’re just so beautiful. And you’ve had such an influence on Krannert Art Museum in the last four years.
JLS: Exactly.
BN: But I’m so pleased that we were able to show that side of your talent.
SS: Uh-huh.
BN: I mean, everybody knew you, as you know, an amazing theater professor, and you, you know, of course, kabuki. But to shine a light on your, on your visual talent as well has been a real pleasure. And every time I sit down with you, I learn something new. You are so multifaceted.
SS: Well, I was a crazy Japanese kid.
BN: What have we been able to learn from you?
[Recording stops.]
